Comments on: Peace Sells… http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/ "Please send me evenings and weekends" Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:15:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Skuds http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99443 Skuds Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:53:24 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99443 The thing is Richard, despite what you say, I think the council's pension fund is the one aspect of a council that we taxpayers shouldn't have a say in. We can have opinions obviously, and hope the members agree now they are aware of the facts, but it is not a service aimed at employees not residents, and it is funded by those employees out of their salaries not by our taxes. (Apart from any employer contributions of course) As it happens, the Mrs. is an SSA at a school and is part of the WSCC pension scheme. She was suitably offended by the story. The thing is Richard, despite what you say, I think the council’s pension fund is the one aspect of a council that we taxpayers shouldn’t have a say in.

We can have opinions obviously, and hope the members agree now they are aware of the facts, but it is not a service aimed at employees not residents, and it is funded by those employees out of their salaries not by our taxes. (Apart from any employer contributions of course)

As it happens, the Mrs. is an SSA at a school and is part of the WSCC pension scheme. She was suitably offended by the story.

]]> By: Richard http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99437 Richard Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:10:58 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99437 Investing in any corporation so closely associated with a mafia-styled elite intent on global control of resources, and thus inevitably global war, seems "unethical" (immoral) to me. Investing in any corporation so closely associated with a mafia-styled elite intent on global control of resources, and thus inevitably global war, seems “unethical” (immoral) to me.

]]> By: skud's sister http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99434 skud's sister Tue, 09 Sep 2008 21:11:52 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99434 The main 'unethical' areas ought to be fairly obvious - arms, tobacco, Nestle. Not everyone agrees about pharmaceuticals - results usually good, business practice sometimes not - and I'm still confused on GM. Shar'ia law is, apparantly, quite specific about what are not acceptable types of business for banks to invest in for Muslims. Although everyone has a different view on what is ethical the main problem seems to be that, without any transparency to pension fund investments the employee is unable to make an informed decision on what their money is invested in. Although ethical investments do give a good return I would imagine than really big investment funds do better. What would be encouraging would be employers putting their money where their corporate social responsibility statement is. The main ‘unethical’ areas ought to be fairly obvious – arms, tobacco, Nestle. Not everyone agrees about pharmaceuticals – results usually good, business practice sometimes not – and I’m still confused on GM. Shar’ia law is, apparantly, quite specific about what are not acceptable types of business for banks to invest in for Muslims. Although everyone has a different view on what is ethical the main problem seems to be that, without any transparency to pension fund investments the employee is unable to make an informed decision on what their money is invested in. Although ethical investments do give a good return I would imagine than really big investment funds do better. What would be encouraging would be employers putting their money where their corporate social responsibility statement is.

]]> By: Richard http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99433 Richard Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:47:01 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99433 Nobody's asking for a "definitive" WSCC/CBC Code of Practice - that's clearly impossible - but what is clearly possible is a "defined" WSCC/CBC Code of Practice. Are we to assume that WSCC/CBC has a "defined" (eg written) Code of Practice in this regard ? And if so, are we to assume that this Code is being implemented ? Council taxpayers (Cllr Smith's bankroller) AND Council employees, have a perfectly legitimate right to see that "defined" Code, and also to see that it is being implemented. The WSCC Leader, Cllr Henry Smith, seems to believe there is a very clear Code of Practice : INVEST IN THOSE COMPANIES WHICH PRODUCE THE HIGHEST RETURN. Trans-national global corporations (eg Halliburton), which produce 'killing equipment'' for wars throughout the world, appear to guarantee the highest return on investment. So, it seems to me, if WSCC applies its present 'Code', most of the pension money might well be invested in nuclear warhead manufacturers. That would make good business & profit sense, but bad ethical & moral sense - wouldn't it ? In fact, to my mind, it would not just be a morally obscenity - it would be moral insanity. Nobody’s asking for a “definitive” WSCC/CBC Code of Practice – that’s clearly impossible – but what is clearly possible is a “defined” WSCC/CBC Code of Practice.

Are we to assume that WSCC/CBC has a “defined” (eg written) Code of Practice in this regard ?
And if so, are we to assume that this Code is being implemented ?

Council taxpayers (Cllr Smith’s bankroller) AND Council employees, have a perfectly legitimate right to see that “defined” Code, and also to see that it is being implemented.

The WSCC Leader, Cllr Henry Smith, seems to believe there is a very clear Code of Practice : INVEST IN THOSE COMPANIES WHICH PRODUCE THE HIGHEST RETURN.

Trans-national global corporations (eg Halliburton), which produce ‘killing equipment” for wars throughout the world, appear to guarantee the highest return on investment.

So, it seems to me, if WSCC applies its present ‘Code’, most of the pension money might well be invested in nuclear warhead manufacturers.

That would make good business & profit sense, but bad ethical & moral sense – wouldn’t it ?

In fact, to my mind, it would not just be a morally obscenity – it would be moral insanity.

]]> By: Skuds http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99432 Skuds Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:54:37 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99432 Jane - apparently ethical investments don't have to have a poor return. (According to Symon Hill, spokesman for the Campaign Against the Arms Trade. He says"There's no contradiction between financial viability and ethical investments") The trouble with ethical investment, as Ian hints, is that it about as well-defined as "affordable housing". There are just so many things that polarise opinion and that some people would think ethical and others unethical: fox hunting, prostitution, nuclear power, homosexuality, alcohol, pornography, nepotism, tax avoidance, trading with Cuba... You might even take something like the arms trade and decide that there are good and bad companies, or just say they are all bad. Or say they are all fine, even the ones that make landmines and cluster bombs and bribe foreign defence ministers. For all I know, Saddam may have thought that gassing kurds was absolutely ethical, so you can't have a definitive code of practice. Maybe the next time the fund trustees send out an annual report, or there is a call for new representatives, there will be a bit more interest? Jane – apparently ethical investments don’t have to have a poor return. (According to Symon Hill, spokesman for the Campaign Against the Arms Trade. He says”There’s no contradiction between financial viability and ethical investments”)

The trouble with ethical investment, as Ian hints, is that it about as well-defined as “affordable housing”. There are just so many things that polarise opinion and that some people would think ethical and others unethical: fox hunting, prostitution, nuclear power, homosexuality, alcohol, pornography, nepotism, tax avoidance, trading with Cuba…

You might even take something like the arms trade and decide that there are good and bad companies, or just say they are all bad. Or say they are all fine, even the ones that make landmines and cluster bombs and bribe foreign defence ministers.

For all I know, Saddam may have thought that gassing kurds was absolutely ethical, so you can’t have a definitive code of practice.

Maybe the next time the fund trustees send out an annual report, or there is a call for new representatives, there will be a bit more interest?

]]> By: ian irvine http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99426 ian irvine Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:19:44 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99426 Yes, I'm sure that CBC's pension fund & WSCC's pension fund are one and the same...if I am wrong no doubt someone will correct me. It seems to be possible to get a good return on money by investing it 'ethically', take the Co-operative, for example. What I'm not sure about is what exactly is an 'ethical' or an 'unethical' investment. Is it defined in a Code of Practice for pension funds and investment companies? Yes, I’m sure that CBC’s pension fund & WSCC’s pension fund are one and the same…if I am wrong no doubt someone will correct me.

It seems to be possible to get a good return on money by investing it ‘ethically’, take the Co-operative, for example. What I’m not sure about is what exactly is an ‘ethical’ or an ‘unethical’ investment.
Is it defined in a Code of Practice for pension funds and investment companies?

]]> By: Ron Robins http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99425 Ron Robins Sun, 07 Sep 2008 19:02:01 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99425 Interesting discussion! Readers interested in knowing more about the world of ethical investing might like to go to my site. It covers many of the questions raised here and offers the latest global news and research related to ethical investing. It's at http://investingforthesoul.com/ Best wishes, Ron Interesting discussion! Readers interested in knowing more about the world of ethical investing might like to go to my site. It covers many of the questions raised here and offers the latest global news and research related to ethical investing. It’s at http://investingforthesoul.com/

Best wishes, Ron

]]> By: skud's sister http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99423 skud's sister Sun, 07 Sep 2008 16:53:58 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99423 Part of the problem, in my view, would be that the Council Workers will get the best deal on a pension by using a Council run scheme rather than a private pension but if they would prefer the investments to be ethical (or if it is necessary that the investments comply with Shar'ia law for example) then they must accept a worse deal. Again, I am almost certainly being naive but should the 'largest employer' be allowed to, effectively, financially punish workers for their ethics. Part of the problem, in my view, would be that the Council Workers will get the best deal on a pension by using a Council run scheme rather than a private pension but if they would prefer the investments to be ethical (or if it is necessary that the investments comply with Shar’ia law for example) then they must accept a worse deal. Again, I am almost certainly being naive but should the ‘largest employer’ be allowed to, effectively, financially punish workers for their ethics.

]]> By: Skuds http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99422 Skuds Sun, 07 Sep 2008 16:48:17 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99422 I'm confused.. Ian, are you saying that the CBC pension fund is part of the county's fund? Gert hit the nail on the head by saying that the fund is the property of of it's members. AFAIK they get the chance to vote for trustees who will represent their views on investments. Whether a fund should have an ethical dimension and exactly what that entails does not depend on my definition of ethical, or Henry Smith's, or even the readership of the Crawley News but its a matter for the members whose opinions are not quoted - except that obviously Smith and Mullins are both members of the fund as well as members of the council. The council is saying it is not involved in the decisions but is defending those decisions as if it was in charge. I’m confused.. Ian, are you saying that the CBC pension fund is part of the county’s fund?

Gert hit the nail on the head by saying that the fund is the property of of it’s members. AFAIK they get the chance to vote for trustees who will represent their views on investments.

Whether a fund should have an ethical dimension and exactly what that entails does not depend on my definition of ethical, or Henry Smith’s, or even the readership of the Crawley News but its a matter for the members whose opinions are not quoted – except that obviously Smith and Mullins are both members of the fund as well as members of the council.

The council is saying it is not involved in the decisions but is defending those decisions as if it was in charge.

]]> By: ian irvine http://skuds.org/2008/09/peace-sells/comment-page-1/#comment-99421 ian irvine Sun, 07 Sep 2008 10:11:59 +0000 http://skuds.org/?p=2413#comment-99421 WSCC' s pension fund invests the pension contributions of other Council employees, like Crawley Borough Council's. This means I've got a bit of money tied up there, as I paid into the pension when I was a councillor. Maybe the question should now be extended to other areas of investment that are considered to be 'unethical', like, as you suggest Skuds, peddling ciggies to children in poor countries, or companies which contribute to Tory party funds. What do people consider to be 'unethical' in investment terms? WSCC’ s pension fund invests the pension contributions of other Council employees, like Crawley Borough Council’s. This means I’ve got a bit of money tied up there, as I paid into the pension when I was a councillor.
Maybe the question should now be extended to other areas of investment that are considered to be ‘unethical’, like, as you suggest Skuds, peddling ciggies to children in poor countries, or companies which contribute to Tory party funds.

What do people consider to be ‘unethical’ in investment terms?

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