There is a lot of talk about the forthcoming attempt by Christopher Chope (described as a senior Tory – don’t know if he is a ‘grandee’ though) to effectively abolish the national minimum wage, just when it has been announced that the minimum wage is due to increase to a princely £5.80 an hour.John Prescott is continuing to show what a great campaigner he is still is by leading the effort to prevent this bill getting a second reading.  The full details are on the wageconcern website – including the full list of Labour MPs who have signed the Early Day Motion condemning the bill. I was immensely pleased to see my own MP’s name on there, although disappointed that the number of signatures is not closer to 350.
This is exactly the sort of thing the Labour party should be involved in – just like the recent campaign to improve statutory redandancy levels.
To put the minimum wage into perspective, if somebody earning the new minimum wage in October of £5.80 were to work 24 hours a day, every day for a whole year, they would still fall more than £14,000 short of an MP’s basic salary. In fact they would have to work nearly 10 hours a day for 365 days just to earn the amount of the now notorious MPs’ additional costs allowance.
Just who are these 12 Tory MPs promoting the bill to tell anybody on the minimum wage that they are earning too much?    Having felt let down by some of my own party’s politicans in recent weeks I am especially pleased to see this reminder of why I joined the party in the first place – to improve fairness and social justice, as Prescott puts it.
We can all do our bit too – contact our MP and ask them to be in the Commons on Friday to support the campaign, or sign the petition.
If a minimum wage of £5.73 is so essential for “fairness and social justice” why does your party think it acceptable to tax those in receipt of these low levels of pay and therefore reduce it to an effective £4.82 an hour?
Hypocrisy from Prescott we all understand – after all he supported every single tax change that means that these people only get £4.82 an hour, but I do hope that you are campaigning just as hard to stop your government increasing taxes for the low paid.
You understand how tax allowances work, yes? You know what tax credits are, yes?
For most people on the minimum wage, income tax is zero, or effectively zero.
For some, it only applies on annual earnings over the threshold, but they qualify for tax credits (which Prescott voted for, btw).
But as you are clearly concerned about the lower paid, I assume that you will sign the petition to ensure that it is not further reduced…
I am feeling overcome with deja vu.
Didn’t this discussion/argument already happen here last year?
FWIW I would gladly see the basic tax threshold raised and the complicated tax credit system reduced.
Yes – Danivon, but why do you always deliberately ignore the point that for certain sectors in receipt of the minimum wage there are no tax credits to top up their income.
I’ll bet you thought the 10p tax fiasco was “absolutely totally brilliant” as well and that those who ended up not being compensated were just whinging like those who lose out on your minimum wage scheme.
On the Maidy site you have been regularly criticized for simply spouting Labour sound bites so I suppose it was a bit hopeless to expect some serious acknowledgment of the problems on a Labour site like this.
One of our local MPs (not mine, thank goodness) claims that the minimum wage means that employers are unwilling to take on ex-offenders or those with mental illnesses. The idea being that these people are not worth the risk at £5.73 an hour but might be worth trying at, say £2.50 an hour. I was, for a moment, speechless when I heard that but then realised that this was an MP who voted against the Climate Change bill…
You are right it is the same arguments again from the rather boring Ash. I imagine him to be a very annoying man down the pub.
Hiro – have you ever tried to make a sensible contribution to anything in your life without resorting to personal abuse?
With people like you in the Labour party it’s hardly surprising your core voters are flocking to the BNP.
And thats not being insulting? I think my original thoughts still apply – those of you whose wage is nowhere near the minimum wage should speak to some real people rather than just reading the newspapers and sociological research.
Ash, you are getting very tiresome…
No, I was not happy about the 10% tax rate, although the problems were greatly exaggerated by opportunist politicians who care not a jot. I would have preferred a change to the personal allowances to lift more people out of tax – which is what ended up happening in the end anyway.
However, I remember working in an industry which had a Wages Council, abolished by J Major’s government. My hourly rate was stuck at just over £3.00 for years. So I do know what it’s like to be on a low wage, thanks very much.
Last time I was criticised on the Maidy site, it was for being too wordy, which is surely the opposite of soundbites. I have also been attacked when I’ve written about opposing party or government policy.
What’s more, Tax Credits are dependent on sector. The qualification does not include what your job is at all. Don’t know where you got that from.
Yes, for some people on the minimum wage, there does end up being a tax liability. These would be those who are earning most per year, who are in a household with another significant earner, or are single with no children. However, the minimum wage pre-dates tax credits, and was formulated with the knowledge that people would be paying tax in certain circumstances. Before the minimum wage, people could be on lower hourly rates and still have to pay tax on it! At the time, I expect you were bemoaning how high the initial MW was, as the Tory Party were.
Now, it’s not only there (and going up faster than inflation), but people who are on it have over they past 11 years had their overall tax position improve as well (the basic tax rate has fallen, allowances are higher, and many qualify for tax credits).
Spare me your faux concern for the lower paid, and don’t assume that I or others don’t have personal experience of low pay. I know what happens when pay becomes a case of ‘devil take the hindmost’, and it is not that people on low wages end up better off.
Ash….I am not nor have I ever been a member of any political party.
Do you ever make any contribution to anything without trying to make political points scoring?
As for personal abuse…HYPOCRITE…there is another.
Flocking to the BNP are they…well they will see you there then.
Danivon – so sorry if you find people who disagree with you ‘tiresome’
As you now have been forced to agree with me that your original (incorrect) assertion that all people who are in receipt of the minimum wage are fully compensated for any loss of tax by receipt of tax credits, can we now agree that you and your party feel that certain groups are able to survive on a wage of £4.82 an hour.
That being the case what is the difference between your stance and that of the Tory geezer who is proposing this? – it’s all very well your soundbites about those on the minimum wage, but in the end the people affected end up with the same income from you or the other guy.
Firstly, it is repetitive and boring people that I find tiresome. I\’m quite happy to deal with people who I disagree with if they are reasonable people (in both senses of the word).
Secondly, I did not state that ALL people on the minimum wage got tax credits. I said that for some who pay tax on the MW, there are tax credits available. There are some for whom they are not, but it is a small proportion (and tends to be those in a relatively better position).
On your last question, I don\’t know. Some people from wealthy households may well be on minimum wage, and are clearly not the same as those who the only earner in a household. I\’d maintain this – the minimum wage is a lot better than none, and it\’s gradual increase is ideal. I\’d have no problem with a policy that essentially put anyone on the minimum wage working over 35 hours a week out of income tax altogether.
However, even those on about £10K are not currently paying the proportion of tax that you are claiming, because over half of it will be exempt on the Personal Allowance.
So, the question back at you – are you happy with the idea of people taking home LESS than £4.82 an hour?
No – but then I believe that far more would be helped by exempting those on low wages from tax altogether and scrapping the ridiculously complicated credit scheme. I would also like to see the rules changed that mean that some of the people on the lowest pay have marginal tax rates of approaching 90%.
I find your position on this issue intellectually incoherent – first you claim that it is OK for the government to impose a minimum wage of £4.82 on some of the poorest in the country and then you claim it is unacceptable to allow those same people to choose to take on a job at the same rate. If the government thinks that £4.82 is enough then why shouldn’t individuals be free to agree that for themselves?
I’m also quite amused at the hysterical overreaction of you and Skuds to this Tory guy – I mean this “3 days to save the minimum wage” lark – who do you think you are kidding?. Private members bills rarely become law and PMB’s on controversial subjects by opposition members never do, so the chances of getting the minimum wage legislation schanged in this parliament are zero.
Seems this is yet more party spin to deflect attention from the real problems of Labour than any real concern about the low paid – There’s a rather good thread on this on the Labourhome website where even Labour activists are questioning whether this is a valid use of time and energy.
Are you still paid to spin for the Labour Party?
> Are you still paid to spin for the Labour Party?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
I never was paid to be Press Officer (and have never held any paid position in the Labour Party), and I didn’t ‘spin’ when I was. You’ve repeated that assertion before, and to do so again is to knowingly lie.
As it is, I haven\’t signed the petition for the simple reason that it won\’t get through, so on that bit I tend to agree with you, but not on lumping me in with Skuds as hysterically overreacting. Again, another attack against me personally which has no evidence to support it.
As I’ve already said, I agree that the tax allowances should be higher – on that I think we concur. The Tax credits system is imperfect, but it does target help at households in greater need and is less complicated than a load of benefits.
As I’ve said, the £4.82 is a red herring. I’ve seen nothing from you to refute what I posted above – that it is not actually realistic for the vast majority of people on MW – let alone to back up the idea that if we effectively drop the minimum wage it will actually do much for the economy or for those on low pay.
I doubt that very much hiro – the BNP is simply socialism for racists and neither theory has ever held any appeal for me.
You thick liar Ash
Stupid man
LOL – i see that the Labour Party’s level of discourse is as high as ever.
About the same height as their financial probity in fact…
Ash they were your words from the maidenbower site describing Laura Moffat?? Sums you up I guess
and at risk of repeating myself…I am not a labour member…as for financial probity you show clear political lines as the disgusting scandal is across the political parties and not limited but of course you would not recognise that!! Our MP did not buy a house (Of course not good enough for the likes of you) She rented so no profit made (not good enough for the likes of you) She claimed only for a set of towels (not good….etc) She claimed for food; an entitlement (not good ….etc) She has no moat, no gardener, no mortgage etc but you feel justified to call her pathetic?
hiro – I’m impressed that you want to stalk me around the internet, if you want I can give you a list a of sites I visit so you dont have to go searching.
As for our esteemed Ms Moffatt – what is pathetic is that she claims to spend her nights sleeping on a campbed in her office yet still feels the need to bill the taxpayer for almost £20k a year – but I suppose theres always somebody who will believe her.
I personally think there is something a bit evil about you Mr Ash. You complain about lack of political debating and yet you stoop to trying have fun at a lady and weight?
Well you belong to the “nasty party” so there you go.
“You complain about lack of political debating and yet you stoop to trying have fun at a lady and weight?”
‘weight’ – what are you on about?
I havn’t mentioned anyones weight
Apart from accusing me of being in the BNP, a thick liar and stupid have you anything coherent to add to the thread? – which is actually about the minimum wage in case you missed it.
It was all said ages ago…you put up the same old right wing arguments about not giving a person a decent living.
So you did not put
“Must be a big camp bed.. :whistle: ”
I only use words you used about a wife, mother, sister and happens to have a job as an MP…do you have anything other to say other than slag an essentially good person who spent most of her working life nursing sick people like you?
The sad thing is that it is people like you that bring the worst out in me….In that people who really don’t care about their fellow man make me turn to my base side.
Why not slag off Maude, or Smith for their use of expenses? Why not have a go at the Multi rich Osbourne or Cameron? When did any of these do a decent days work? Or worried where the next meal may come from or how they might pay the mortgage.
I do it out of anger not out of malice…unlike yourself.
hiro, if you are going to chase me around the Internet why not try commenting on the websites where the comments were made – otherwise it gets a bit confusing.
I’m somewhat amused that you jumped to the assumption that I was talking about Ms Moffatt’s weight – I was actually commenting on the cost of this camp bed.
Mr Maude got £23k last year and used it to buy a £300k flat in Lambeth – Ms Moffatt got £18k and ended up with a camp bed…
I get the impression that you have some personal connection to our MP and therefore are very touchy about any criticism of her performance – perhaps you should steer clear of political forums.
But back to your nonsense assertion over the minimum wage – “you put up the same old right wing arguments about not giving a person a decent living” – well given that the Labour Party believe that £4.82 an hour is enough for a decent living then there seems to be cross party support for this level.
No, no connection to LM…apart from the fact she helped me out once and was extremely helpful…So Maude makes a profit out his allowance and that is better…what a warped sense of right you have, and I am sure that the sick aside about the bed was as I read it. Of course you run with the tail between your legs when the hypocrisy is revealed!
LOL – you do like to invent things dont you.
Please dont tell us that you really believe that Ms Moffatt spent £18k on a camp bed.
It’s either the biggest, grandest camp bed in the world – or her story about spending her nights sleeping in her office is a wee bit of a porky.
hiro – is there any particular reason why you dont want to discuss the Minimum wage – you seem desperate to change the subject all the time
If you were not so desperate to find fault you may have looked a bit closer. Page 29 of the expenses states she gave up the flat in early 2008. In Jan 2008 she made no claim for second home allowance. So she has not made a claim for 18k for a camp bed. (god you really are thick) Unless you are privy to her nocturnal habits you can not say if it is true or not! Although you are so Tory blinkered you will believe she is a liar…well if she is then she joins you in the “biggest pants on fire”
Unlike you Ash I made my arguments some while ago and I don’t have to try keep banging the same political drum…As a Tory Boy I accept you would never want anything that would be for the social good…It’s in your make up…nasty people for a nasty party.
“I never was paid to be Press Officer (and have never held any paid position in the Labour Party), and I didn’t ’spin’ when I was. You’ve repeated that assertion before, and to do so again is to knowingly lie.
As it is, I haven\’t signed the petition for the simple reason that it won\’t get through, so on that bit I tend to agree with you, but not on lumping me in with Skuds as hysterically overreacting. Again, another attack against me personally which has no evidence to support it.”
Ash just goes on digging that big hole showing him to be a nasty man following the “nasty party”
“As it is, I haven\’t signed the petition for the simple reason that it won\’t get through, so on that bit I tend to agree with you, but not on lumping me in with Skuds as hysterically overreacting. Again, another attack against me personally which has no evidence to support it.”
Know what you mean about petitions. I don’t think they ever achieve what they say they want – all they do is allow people to think they are doing something and/or make them feel better about themselves by signing.
Mind you, it doesn’t do any harm, but don’t imagine that I hold any illusions that any petition will work.
As for over-reacting… the whole campaign against the Chope bill is IMO deliberate over-reaction and none the worse for that.
Private members bills hardly ever get through and don’t need a campaign to prevent them BUT why not get a bit of publicity for those MPs who are bothering to stay in Westminster on a Friday to actually carry out some parliamentary business? Why not make it more widely known that MPs do actually do things other than claim expenses.
Besides, the bill is important even if it is doomed. Firstly it gives an insight to the Tory mindset, but it also represents the thin end of the wedge and deserves to be snuffed out and snuffed out publicly.
As for the ongoing and sporadic Ash/Hiro row… it is getting as bad as the Parcelnet thread. I am very tempted to say “get a room!” 🙂
I think they’re cute. It’s like a bickering old couple after the pub’s closed.